In the past, I have written a few blogs touching on religion. My personal beliefs aside, one thing I continue to wonder about is how it’s supposed to work. Even when I did believe in a God, I guess I never looked at it the same way others seem to. It’s the mechanics of the thing that I can’t seem to wrap my head around and the questions I’m about to ask are meant in all seriousness, not with sarcasm. Well, it is me, so some might be laced with sarcasm. God is an esoteric concept that most people think of as concrete fact so I’d like to ask all you true believers how the God show is supposed to work.
First off, where is heaven? I mean, is it an actual place and if so, could get there in a really fast spaceship? Or is heaven right here, but on a different plane so we cannot actually see it until we kick? And if it’s just sort of hiding in another dimension or something, are we people when we go there, like, do we look like ourselves and have some sort of transparent body that’s not really matter? Or do we pass into a different form of energy when we die, but keep our conscious which maybe projects the appearance of bodies and a physical place called heaven, when we are actually just some sort of supernatural vapor in a other dimensional vapor heaven kind of thing?
Do you ever wonder if the reason you believe in God is simply because it’s what you’ve been taught to believe. If God is a fact, yet one nobody has ever seen then the only way you believe now is because society and your parents told you to or else you believe there was some innate force in your mind/soul that made you believe. Does that make sense? I mean, if you were born and raised in a community that no one ever spoke about a God and you’d never heard of religion do you think you would still be a believer somehow? Of something you’d never heard of?
Following that logic, do you not agree that God and religion must be man made? I’m not even talking about the actual existence. I mean, possibly God does exist, but our notion of religion and God is man made because it was told to a man who told another man, etc. If you lived somewhere without access to it, you’d not be a believer – so do you think such people are doomed to hell despite the fact that they’ve simply never been offered the opportunity to believe or not believe?
Another question I have is what do you think God looks like? He is a big white old guy with a flowing beard? A George Burns type figure? If you were God, would you choose to look old or more like George Clooney? Also, how do you explain that most in the Western world believe God is a white guy? If I buy the story of Jesus and God, etc., then doesn’t logic follow that God would not be white? I mean, you do know where Jerusalem is, right? Chances aren’t good that God would be white. One more news flash along that line, Jesus didn’t have blue eyes.
I have so many questions. What about the old testament? Do people actually believe in an arc? That was the OT right? Do people believe Lott’s wife turned into a pillar of salt? If the OT stories are now considered to be parables, then how do you insist the new testament is fact? What else? Oh, why do you tell your sins to a dude instead of just confessing to the man upstairs himself during your nightly prayers? I mean, you do realize that a priest/minister/rabbi/etc. is giving you penance that he or she makes up in accordance to what he or she thinks is appropriate. The man/woman of the cloth might have more experience, but there is not a sin to penance guideline laid out in the Bible, so couldn’t you just sort of do that yourself? It seems weird.
Finally, how do Christians, Muslims, Jews, you name it excuse the misogyny that seems ever present in their religious texts? Do you believe that your God actually felt women, a . . . um, species, he created was inferior and deserved to be treated as such? Why would an all-powerful God create such a creature on purpose? Is it not more likely that since the Bible, Qur’an, Tanakh, etc., were written by men that they just made men better?
I don’t get a lot about your beliefs and I keep wanting to ask my priest father-in-law, but he can be kind of pompous about this shit and I fear it would annoy me enough to finally blurt out that I’m a nonbeliever. So I leave it to, beloved readers, to help me understand how I die, but then have a body that goes to a heaven that either exists in a real place or doesn’t. It’s all a little foolish and completely irrational to me and I find that I often surprised that other rational people actually believe it, but then I remember that it wasn’t long ago that I too believed. I just never understood the traditional beliefs, so explain it to me. Explain to me as if I were a small child, because honestly, I’m having a hard time picturing what you all seem to take for granted.
Jesus, you're asking a lot Ame. I'm loving this blog by the way. Makes me want to open mine back up.
ReplyDeleteI won't go into great detail about my answers to the questions that you ask, mainly because I've had the same questions myself for a long time. Simply I'll say that traveling and living abroad in several different countries and cultures and learning several different languages has shed a lot of light on the whole God thing that Westerners cling to. I'll tell you this, there are a lot of places and people in the world who have not been exposed to the shit we get exposed to in the west about God. Therefore they don't know and really don't care. Also culture and language play a large part in the way they view or don't view God or a western God I should say. Even if they were exposed, because of language and culture, it just wouldn't make sense, it wouldn't work, it wouldn't translate.
So anyone trying to tell you about God or answer any of your questions is regurgitating things they have been conditioned to believe. There is no way that they can prove or answer with any concrete fact any of your questions. That's why the inventors of the great white God from the sky also invented the idea of faith so that people wouldn't ask your kind of questions. It's the greatest hoax of all time!
P.S. I bet some of them will get mad that you even asked.
ReplyDeleteI believe in Everything. I believe your reality is your Truth. I believe that the energy that makes me alive is the same energy in all matter, so I do not find it strange when my dog cracks a joke, a tree waves at me, a cloud shows me it's buttcrack or a cave in my backyard creates wonderful crevices for my children to play. I believe in prayer, intention, karma and a Holy Spirit, which is ever present, loving and available to meet our every need. I believe that as I inhale, Mother Earth exhales, and vise versa. I believe that if you think it's wrong, then it is, and that we are all given a different set of principles and sensitivities, designed so that every cause has a voice, and every wrong could be made right. I believe that at the heart of evil is fear, and that our greatest joy will be found when we embrace every circumstance as a gift, trusting that we are always right where we are supposed to be. I believe that God likes fabulous shoes, football and anything else that creates pleasure--unless we are anti-shoes or anti-sports, and then He fully supports the passion there. Mother Nature knows when a bird falls from the sky and when a flower doesn't bloom, and She's very busy creating artwork in the forest. I believe that if I pray to Mother Mary, Jesus, or my Grandma Dorothy, their love, attention and wisdom is available to me. I believe that when I take communion, that it really is Jesus b/c the priest prayed over it, and his prayer made it so. I believe that if I "only say the words, I shall be healed". I believe in divine intervention and intention and I do not believe in coincidences. I believe that humanity as it has developed is like a cancer growing on Mother Earth, and that balance will be restored one way or another. I believe in creation, intelligent design, evolution, alien abductions, ghosts, saints, prophets and shamans. I believe that my leg bone is connected to my hips, which are connected to my emotions, and that my brain is connected to my mind, which directly affects my spirit. I believe words have the power to create as well as destroy, and that Truth is manifested in all realms. I believe heaven is right here on earth, coexisting next to Hell, but I think the entire universe is our playground. I believe that God looks like everything and everyone and exists everywhere. He's comfortable in a bathrobe and long beard, but he only wears that for the people who like it. He also does drag, animal interpretations, stone impressions and invisibility cloaks, to name a few. I believe God is with me, in me and for me, I am closest to the Divine in yoga, in prayer, in laughter, in the Catholic Church, in music and in silence. I believe that I am crazy and completely sane too. Namaste, and God Bless.
ReplyDeleteOh, and about the Bible. I believe that if I pray right before I open it, then whatever I read is (probably) what I needed to hear. But I also believe this about cookbooks...which by the way, never require you to put love into food, but I believe if you do, the food is more nutritious and sustaining.
ReplyDeleteColleen (Mommyville), I love and appreciate your belief system because it is very like what mine was before I became an atheist. I saw God all around me and rather than a concrete being and place, God and heaven were energy that infused the world and the afterlife. What I never understood then or now is how those more strictly defined believers actually explain the answers to my questions. You are a spiritualist as was I until I became a naturalist. To me all those wonders of the organic world and love in the emotional self are simply born of the organic itself. You would be no less a loving woman without ever hearing about a God, likewise, your flowers and garden grow because it is what nature does. The spiritual being is not a mystery to me, that is simply the natural self attributing the beauty and wonders of the world to God. You could still teach yoga without a God. You can still mother without a God. You can still love and laugh and enjoy the world without a God.
ReplyDeleteIngram, I am not looking for factual evidence, I am an atheist so trust me there isn't any. What I am looking for is the story behind how the believers justify these things. I'm not even insinuating they aren't real, I just really want to understand because I know a lot of believers and most of them seem pretty rational. It seems logical then, to assume they simply know something I don't. There's got to be something I missed from my days in the Catholic church, because that whole Arc, virgin birth, man made in God's image, heaven scenario seems impossible to me. It's not even about faith for me at this point, I get faith, I had faith. What I want to understand are the logistics. How does it all work? Where the hell is heaven and one day when we have space travel will we accidentally bump into it? I'm not saying I'm going to see their logic and believe, I just want to respect their views and right now it's impossible because I don't even know HOW they think.
Really appreciate your insight on the varied cultural beliefs. I spent three weeks in Southeast Asia a couple years ago and not once did I see a church or hear anyone speak about their religious beliefs. It just wasn't a part of their day to day living the way it is here. It didn't seem that people attributed the good or bad in their life with God's will the way we do. I miss Asia . . . well, not the 100% humidity and 95 degree days or the bugs, but other things. :)
May I ask why you choose to be atheist? Your world seems darker and less fun than mine. What caused you to move away from what you identify as similar beliefs as mine....to atheism...and how is that not in itself a religion? You have a set of beliefs. They don't make sense to me given the vast and infinite proof of God in every corner of the micro and macroscopic world. When I read your thoughts on atheism, they strike me as 'strictly defined'. You can't believe in Ghosts even if you come across one. And if you get faith, then you understand exactly why 'they' believe what they do. You have a set of beliefs that you cling to for comfort. They work for you--even if you don't like them. The difference between me and you is polar...I believe everything is possible and you believe nothing. If you said you just got a call from the mothership, and it's time to go, I'd help you pack. If I told you I had infallible proof that God is real, Jesus rose from the dead and that Mary was a virgin, you probably wouldn't listen except to entertain yourself. I think it takes a lot of faith to NOT believe in God.
ReplyDelete(let me begin by defining some terms, the Tanakh, Torah/Nevim/Kethuvim, is the same as the protestant OT and those are names of the divisions. the catholic Bible also has deuterocanonical [second canon] books like maccabees. )
ReplyDeleteheaven right here, but on a different plane?
(this is pretty close to what i think. the bible doesn't really get into that. the same way we can be surround by light that is outside our visual range, modern physics especially string theory, postulates that we are within many dimensions that we can not perceive.)
actually just some sort of supernatural vapor in a other dimensional vapor heaven kind of thing?
(in eastern religion the astral projection is part of your soul and after death the point would be to have your soul, after leaving the body, to become 'one' and disperse throughout the universe. i'm not 100% sure how the jewish and islamic traditions come to the conclusion, but it is clear that they expect to have a physical body. the bible is very clear that we will have a physical manifestation in an 'un-fallen' form as in a 'garden of eden' type body and so heaven would also be physical. however it does not follow that the same physical/earthly limitations would be in place.)
your parents told you to or else you believe there was some innate force in your mind/soul that made you believe. Does that make sense?
(it makes perfect sense and unfortunately there are plenty of people that think that way, i mean they think they are christians because their parents were and never question it, as if it's a social club. the Bible tells us to question and search out God and work out our faith. )
you’d never heard of religion do you think you would still be a believer somehow?
(very interesting! i think without this question i might've thought you were just playing around. to me it shows you've already been thinking about it. the Bible says that we are without excuse because God's work is all around us in nature. i know it won't seem like a good enough answer to you, so i'll think on it. you might also ask this particular question on a forum i'll link you to at the bottom of this page.)
Following that logic, do you not agree that God and religion must be man made?
(i've never heard it put quite like that, but there is a line between purely human tradition and revelations that have occurred in the past. since i have no way of being absolutely sure where that line is, i tend to err towards safety as long as it's nothing i think may be destructive or contrary to another doctrine.)
If you lived somewhere without access to it, you’d not be a believer – so do you think such people are doomed to hell despite the fact that they’ve simply never been offered the opportunity to believe or not believe?
ReplyDelete(there is of course the school of thought that says anyone who has never heard the name Jesus is going to hell, but i think that is greatly overstating it. picture the man standing in front of God at judgment saying "but i didn't know lying and stealing were WRONG, no one ever told me". so God says "how did you feel when people robbed you, and lied to you?" the man says "i was mad! i didn't think it was fair!" and God says "that's how you were to understand that lying and stealing are WRONG!". i believe we are judged by our own standards. some people ask who you want to meet in heaven, and for me it's those people that have never heard the gospel but somehow worked out their faith. i think the buddhas 'there were many bodhisattvas over the years', socrates 'if plato represented him honestly', and many others will be there.)
Another question I have is what do you think God looks like? He is a big white old guy with a flowing beard? A George Burns type figure? If you were God, would you choose to look old or more like George Clooney?
(i think He will look like the sun, when we have eyes capable of seeing him. have you read the description in the baghavad gita when krishna shows himself to arjuna? when moses received the 10 commandments he asked God to let him see Him. God said it would kill him, but they settled on him seeing God's back as he left. the israelites were afraid when they saw him next. you may remember that charton heston came back down the mountain with white hair.)
Also, how do you explain that most in the Western world believe God is a white guy? If I buy the story of Jesus and God, etc., then doesn’t logic follow that God would not be white? I mean, you do know where Jerusalem is, right? Chances aren’t good that God would be white. One more news flash along that line, Jesus didn’t have blue eyes.
(you're preachin' to the choir honey!)
I have so many questions. What about the old testament? Do people actually believe in an arc?
(yes, OT. noah's ark or the ark of the covenant? the description of ark of the covenant with the wooden box plated with certain metal inside and out has been proved to be a type of capacitor that draws static electricity from the atmosphere and stores it. noah's ark would not have two chihuahuas and two wolves and two dobermans etc, but two dogs. there would be plenty of room in the equivalent of a rectangular box that's as big as a football field and 4 stories tall. also the proportions of the ark have been tested and make it very stable 'pun intended' and cause it to stay upright in the midst of hugh waves.){when noah opened the doors he told the animals to go forth and multiply. later as he was cleaning up he found the two snakes. "didn't you hear? go forth and multiply." "but we're adders!" they said.}
Do people believe Lott’s wife turned into a pillar of salt?
(that would be a matter of faith. it's analogous to looking back at the sin we leave behind.)
If the OT stories are now considered to be parables, then how do you insist the new testament is fact?
(i think you mean allegory. parables are the stories Jesus would tell to explain a point and teach difficult doctrine to novices.)( the historical books of the the OT and NT have plenty of archeological evidence. did you know we have more evidence that Jesus was a real person than we do for socrates?)
What else? Oh, why do you tell your sins to a dude instead of just confessing to the man upstairs himself during your nightly prayers? I mean, you do realize that a priest/minister/rabbi/etc. is giving you penance that he or she makes up in accordance to what he or she thinks is appropriate. The man/woman of the cloth might have more experience, but there is not a sin to penance guideline laid out in the Bible, so couldn’t you just sort of do that yourself? It seems weird.
ReplyDelete(confession like that is catholic. protestants are supposed to confess to their pastors and friends, and secular humanists confess to their freuds. sorry, i had to. i'm pretty sure jewish tradition is closer to protestant. i think in catholicism that there are typical cases set down that they go by.)
Finally, how do Christians, Muslims, Jews, you name it excuse the misogyny that seems ever present in their religious texts? Do you believe that your God actually felt women, a . . . um, species, he created was inferior and deserved to be treated as such? Why would an all-powerful God create such a creature on purpose? Is it not more likely that since the Bible, Qur’an, Tanakh, etc., were written by men that they just made men better?
(there are lots of stories in the Bible about great women. deborah, esther, ruth and naomi. you're confusing the way all ancient cultures were i.e. tradition with doctrine. there are very specific ways the Bible tells men and women to treat each other which even modern liberal thought shouldn't find much fault in. it calls us ALL to a higher standard.)
I don’t get a lot about your beliefs and I keep wanting to ask my priest father-in-law, but he can be kind of pompous about this shit and I fear it would annoy me enough to finally blurt out that I’m a nonbeliever. (unfortunately all too common.) So I leave it to, beloved readers, to help me understand how I die, but then have a body that goes to a heaven that either exists in a real place or doesn’t. It’s all a little foolish and completely irrational to me and I find that I often surprised that other rational people actually believe it, but then I remember that it wasn’t long ago that I too believed. I just never understood the traditional beliefs, so explain it to me. Explain to me as if I were a small child, because honestly, I’m having a hard time picturing what you all seem to take for granted.
(no one wakes up one morning and decides to be a christian, or jew, or muslim, the way a person can decide to avoid the question entirely. it's a process that the believer looks back on and sees life and the hand of God leading them to.)
http://www.allempires.net/forum/
ReplyDelete...is a history forum i'm a member of. you will find lots of info and discussions of religion. there are protestants, catholics, atheists, muslims, pagans and i think a couple jews and buddhists. i'm not sure about hindus.
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Answer-Book-Hank-Hanegraaff/dp/0849995442/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267824820&sr=8-3
http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Answer-Book-2/dp/1404103031/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267824820&sr=8-5
i agree with 98% of what is in these two books. they contain the questions every non-believer and perplexed believer asks and gives biblical answers to them. there is a field of inquiry called apologetics. this does not mean an apology as in "i'm sorry", but the ability to give reasoned out answers about ones faith. hank is very good at this.
http://www.amazon.com/Mere-Christianity-C-S-Lewis/dp/0060652888/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1267824923&sr=1-1
a classic.
if later, you still want more personal answers, you can talk to my brother jim. he is a pastor and basketball coach and has a ba in divinity from kings college london.
i've answered your questions though i don't expect that you've changed your mind about anything, and i didn't 'require' you to beforehand. it is your journey and no one can force you to believe anything. but i think you've made a common mistake. you've judged christianity by looking at 'christians' who are just human beings after all. what i haven't mentioned yet is the simple gospel.
we suck, jesus saves.
too simple?
every honest person knows that they do some screwed up stuff sometimes be it lying, or kicking the 'proverbial' dog, aka sin. God is holy and we can't exist in His presence unless we are pure. the cost of sin is death because only life can exist in His presence. the thing is, we can't ever be good enough to go to heaven. trying to be good enough is like a contest to see who can jump from california to hawaii. some may jump farther, but everyone gets wet. Jesus is/was sinless and is thus the only one who can go to heaven. but He is God, He came here specifically for the purpose of dying to save the world. He died so that we who accept this free gift will have their sins paid for by His death instead of our own. those who will not accept this payment for our sins, won't go to heaven. not by Gods will, but by their own will. God wants everyone to go to heaven but He also wants us to be free. if He forces us into heaven then we are cattle.
now this sounds pretty far fetched doesn't it. that's why the traditions of communion and baptism are not enough to save someone. they are meant to be the outward signs of the faith in Jesus as the propitiation of our sins. if it was 'easy' to believe, it wouldn't be worth very much. it wouldn't require a change of heart on our part.
well, i'm sure i forgot something but i don't remember what it is : )
ingram; the dalai lama likes jesus, i'm pretty sure jesus is considered a bodhisattva by hindus and buddhists.
ReplyDeletemommyville; you can do that with the i ching, but you have to be careful flipping the Bible open to see what pops up. . a man who did that was surprised one morning to get as his first verse "judas went and hanged himself", so he tried agsin and got, "now go forth and do likewise".
ame; sorry to drop this big ol' bomb on your comments, next time i'll be more succinct.
Great job, anon! Lots to think about there....your awareness of history and the bigger picture is commanding. What a witness to your faith to put such thought into your response.
ReplyDeleteNot to be flip, b/c I'm actually very serious...a sense of humor is what I lead with... If I don't "feel" the first verse, I give the HS best two out of three....
Gonna try to break this up- I'm too long winded!
ReplyDeleteWell Ame, I'll try my best to try and explain why I believe what I do. I am a Christian- that means to me- that I believe the bible. I believe that Christ died on the cross for my sins and that he rose again and is now in heaven with God. The OT was written when God was very angry. People were doing horrific things and the only way for people to show their love for God was through sacrifices and rituals. God sent his Son to die for us and that brings to us the NT. God sent his Son to die so that we wouldn't have to earn our way to heaven. We are all too sinful to do that. I think that he sent his son to suffer for us so that we would feel a connection with him. I know that Jesus can relate to my sorrows because he was here and was treated worse than I have ever been treated. The basis of my belief is that I am saved by faith through grace. That just means when I asked Jesus to be my savior it was by faith and by him dying on the cross I can have grace. Even though I am a Christian I still have sin and it is a constant battle. I know I could never do enough to get to heaven. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from youselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do " (Eph. 2:8,9).
Here's the thing- I can't make you believe or not believe. God gave us all free will to make our own mind up. He doesn't want a whole bunch of robots in heaven. He wants those that have chosen Him. So to some of your questions-
Faith- we all have faith in something. If you're aethiest then you have faith that there is no God- right? If you believe that there was a big bang and poof- here was the earth- you have to have faith that that indead happened. Think of the human body for an instance. It is so complex. If you believe in the bang theory then all of these complex things just happened from a poof. That seems crazy to me. Here's an analogy- a man takes a bunch of screws and throws them in a box, shakes it around and then opens it and there is a ticking watch. At some point every theory that man has about their beliefs has to have some sort of faith in it.
Heaven- a place of perfect happiness and eternal communion with God.
I don't know how it will be- I think we will have perfect bodies- yeah!! I truly don't think our minds can really comprehend what heaven will be like. I can't comprehend eternity. But I trust it will be great once I can comprehend it.
Family- well I was brought up in a Christian home and I am thankful for that but I had a choice. I know plenty of fellow christians that became so later in life and were not brought up in a christian home. Christians send out missionaries to help people and help teach them about Jesus. I believe that a child will not go to hell and I also believe that if someone never had the chance or opportunity to hear about Jesus that they aren't destined to hell. You also asked about an innate force. I believe that to be the Holy Spirit. A person with a hardened heart will not hear or at least will ignore the tugs that God puts on their heart. This is why another person can never "save" you as you put it. God is the one who does that. He is the one that puts these questions in your head. The devil is alive and well too. The devil tries to put doubt, false teachers, idolitry etc in the way of us and God. You can't fight evil if you don't believe it is there.
God- He is not a human, he is a spiritual being, now Jesus on the other hand was from the middle east- I expect that he was middle eastern looking. I really don't care what color or race he was because I think that has no releavance to who he was and what I believe he was here for.
Parable- it is a story to illustrate an idea. Jesus spoke to the people in the NT in parables. As far as I know there were not parables in the OT. I haven't done near as much reading of the OT as I have of the NT. The teachings of Jesus are found in the NT and once Jesus came the ways of the OT were gone. You no longer had to DO things to show your love for God. But once you are a Christian you should feel some sense of doing what Jesus wants- this is what the bible refers to as-- "bearing fruit"
ReplyDeleteConfession to a priest- that is from the Catholic religion. We don't confess to a priest. I simply repent- ask God to forgive me when I screw up and ask him to help me not to. I can do this anywhere- in the car at the store etc. It is inevitable that we will sin because we are sinners.
the devil is a fallen angel, God created Adam and Eve and they sinned because they wanted God's wisdom. God meant for them to live happily in the Garden of Eden but the serpent talked Eve into taking that bite. That was the original sin. Now we all are born with sin. God sent his one and only son to die for us- A humiliating death at that, to show us- sinners that he loves us. I would never give any of my kids up for some sinners. For this reason I know that God really loves us.
I get really tired of other Christian acting like they are somehow better than others and have a right to judge others. That, in my opinion, is one of the biggest reasons people run from Christianity. Why would I want to be part of a group that says how horrible everyone else is. See the way I see it is God created all of us. He loves all of us the same. In the end it is God who will judge us. It won't be by our outward appearance and what we say to others but what we believe in our hearts. That is why I could never tell you who is and isn't a true Christian. I can't see into their heart. Billy Graham once said that when we get to heaven we will be surprised at who we see there and equally surprised at who we don't.
I know I left out things but I just tried to tell you why I am a Christian.
Hope I made some sort of sense. I have a hard time articulating myself sometimes:)
What an awesome blog topic and responses from your readers, Ame. I am not going to give a response to your questions because some of it I really don't know (honestly) and others have already done it for me. But, I can honestly say I struggle with my faith a lot sometimes and that makes me sad. I have a mix of blind faith and serious doubt on a variety of religious topics. I think I am still a work in progress on the topic of religion.
ReplyDeleteAme, in Plato's Republic, he told the Parable of the Cave, in which slaves chained in the bowels of the earth could only make out "reality" as the shadows flickering on the wall of the cave; I think there was a kind of puppet show being put on behind them, lit by a fire. Plato then contrasts this to the slaves being freed, led out of the cave, and seeing the Sun (the essence of the good, just, beautiful, truth) for the first time, and how they are seared and illuminated with its Being. Rather than having your potpourri questions answered by a smattering of friends, and our imperfect ability to communicate the fire of love and belief we have in our hearts, why don't you go directly to the source itself? Read the damn Bible and ask/pray for guidance. What you're doing is kind of like wanting to discuss Shakespeare without bothering to read any of his plays, except the half-assed reading we all did of Romeo and Juliet back in high school, when we were too stupid and lazy to understand it. You can't get the Cliff's Notes version of Belief. It would be really cool to at least tackle Genesis, a chapter a night, and if the rest of us commenting on your posts (BJ, Colleen, Shauna, and Ingram) could read the same thing and post our thoughts. I just reject the thought of taking something I hold sacred and distilling it down to soundbites; you have to have some skin in the game and you can't do that without the discipline of scripture and the openess of prayer. (Jen M.)
ReplyDeleteThanks Jen for your comment, it was refreshing to see Plato make an appearance. :) Although, in the cave parable Plato was referring to education and philosophical enlightenment, not religious enlightenment.
ReplyDeleteI have read some of the Bible, I was not born with my current belief system, it evolved after almost three decades of faith and some religious education. The questions I ask cannot be found in the Bible which is why they seem so difficult for many to answer. The Bible does not speak to the practical questions I ask and truthfully, I think looking to the Bible for answers about things in the Bible is a bit like citing your own paper as research support for your thesis.
I'm not looking for cosmic answers, I have mine, I'm looking for insight into how the true believers actually believe. Do they simply not ask the obvious and sometimes hard questions? I meant no disrespect or mockery, I am actually very interested in the thought processes and beliefs behind the belief, meaning how people rectify the everyday realities with the metaphysical. I do think that one of the big problems with blind faith is that it also requires a limit to intellectual curiosity and debate. If something does not make sense, you just have faith. It's a little pat and I believe that only good can come from education, enlightenment, and yes, questions.
*At anonymous* So what the Dalai Lama likes Jesus? What does that have to do with any of my comments?
ReplyDelete*At Anonymous* So what the Dalai Lama likes Jesus? What does that have to do with my comment?
ReplyDeleteIngram--I think BJ's point about the Dalai Lama was that as a spiritual leader, his followers look to him for guidance, and if he respects Christ and finds value in his teachings, many of his followers will have that same respect. (As do many Chistians for Buddhism). I'm guessing the assumption was the cultures you said it wouldn't translate to were Eastern, as I understood you the same way. Keep in mind that the Bible is ultimately an Eastern book, and all its writers and the vast majority of intended readers were eastern (except the recipients of Pauline letters in Corinth and Rome, etc.) Much of the baggage Christianity has built up over the centuries is Western, of course, but not the Scriptures themselves. Also, since you are in Korea, you might be surprised how rapidly Christianity has been growing there for decades; the majority of Korean immigrants I have met have been Presbyterian. The Korean students I knew at grad school in Chicago were far more devout & knowledgeable than most American Christians. Christianity is also booming in underground churches in China, under threat of imprisonment, and it has been one of the pillars of Vietnamese culture for centuries, even after the French were ousted in the 50s. Although I do have a very amusing incident of taking a Chinese communist govt. functionary to Easter Sunday service at Trinity English Lutheran in downtown Fort Wayne. It did NOT translate! Jen M.
ReplyDeleteAme, Plato often makes an apprearance in any discussion I have of the New Testament, at least. The church fathers believed the great philosophers saw Christ "through a glass darkly." Paul was a brilliant student of Platonic philosophy, and in fact the gospel of John is a hard-core, full-on Platonic text (should have included that in the "western" side of the ledger for Ingram). I was lucky enough to study Plato and Luther's writings on the NT in the same quarter in grad school--extremely illuminating! I wish I wasn't holding a wiggly l;ittle boy in my lap as i write this as i have a lot of thoughts on some of the questions you raised, especially the women's issues, but alas, like the Wife of Noble Character at the end of Proverbs, I must tend to my household. :) What a lot of interesting discussion, though. I enjoy it!
ReplyDelete03/06/2010 2:30 a.m.
ReplyDeleteWow..... In a previous comment it mentions reading the Bible…that really brings it home. There is so much information and so many opinions in all of these comments. As I sit here and decide how best to tell you about the inner joy you experience when you have accepted God into your life, and when you have asked Him to be your Lord and Savior, I realized something very important. I can’t tell you that. You have to experience it for yourself to even believe me.
The Bible is a factual book, a book of history. There is a class you can take called The New Testament Survey. It will prove to you that the Bible is a collection of true events recorded by men who actually walked and talked with Jesus.
There are a few posts that I read that both angered and saddened me. I didn’t want to continue to read, but I had to. I had to because I believe that I was led here. I was led to this specific page, for this specific purpose, on this day.
Although I am tired and ready for bed, this cannot be left unsaid. God’s love for you drives me. Your salvation drives me. I am not the one to gain from the knowledge you receive at this time. This is about you. Your salvation is what is at stake here. Read the Bible, read it with an open mind, read it with a mind to disprove it….Read it and you will see……YOU WILL SEE THAT GOD IS REAL.
A very well educated man, an atheist by the name of Lew Wallace read the Bible with every intention of tearing it apart and disproving ALL claims that the Bible made. He wrote a book about that experience. C.S. Lewis was a professor at Oxford University. He was an agnostic man. He also wrote a book. Because the overwhelming evidence, and the fact that what he read in the Bible was undisputedly true, he submitted to Jesus as his God and Savior. Read these gentlemen’s books.
I have three more things to say.
1. I was not brought up in a Christian home. I was not told or taught about God, but I knew. I cannot remember a day, NOT ONE DAY in my life not knowing there was a God and I KNEW who he was. (This is true)
These next two I can’t claim to have come from my fantastic brain, but they are pretty thought provoking.
2. If you are living as if there is no God, you better be right.
3. I would rather live my life as if God does exist, loving and abiding in Him, die, and find out I was wrong, than live my life as if God did not exist, die, and find out I was wrong.
I don't know where you live, but I invite you to come and see. Come and see what it is all about. I invite you to my church. I truly believe you will love it. I know you do not know who I am or where I live but God WILL lead you to me in one way or another. As proof, ask Him. Shauna may know who I am as well. If you are interested in coming, ask Shauna. To get you here God will lead her also. What harm can it cause to come. It may just answer your questions and be the ONE thing in life you have been searching for.
Living for Him
3/7/10 9:24 p.m.
ReplyDeleteSection 1
You ask amazing questions. Some questions I myself have pondered. I believe that the earth, the miraculous things Jesus did are quite different than they were biblical times. Due to these circumstances, sometimes the answers are too complex for the mind to wrap around, and at times we tend to over think things too. There are also situations where there seems to be another force at work, a force or power other than God. Now, without further ado, I will put in my two cents on your questions.
(Q) Where is heaven?
(A) I don’t know. I don’t believe anybody knows. The question is will you be there with me?
(Q) Do you ever wonder if the reason you believe in God is simply because it’s what you’ve been taught to believe?
(A) I was not taught to believe any way. I actually was not raised with Christianity or any other religion. I just “felt” Him and I searched. I sought Him out. I read the Bible. I wanted the answers too. Now, I know what I need to, I learn more all the time, and those hard questions that have the answer “faith”, I just don’t think about because it makes my mind wonder away from what I believe to be true. I also believe that people in areas that were never brought up around religion or do not know about God A. Know there is something out there and B. Will hear His word before the end comes.
(Q) Do you not agree that God and religion must be man made?
(A) I do not agree that God and religion are manmade. The Bible was written by men who actually talked with Jesus and saw the miracles He performed. There were thousands of people who died because they admitted to seeing Jesus, The Risen Savior, ascend into heaven after his crucifixion, after He was known to be dead. These people were beheaded and brutally murdered because they saw with their own two eyes Jesus, alive. The question to ask yourself is this, why would so many people be willing to say this knowing the consequence if it were not true? Would you?
(Q) If you lived somewhere without access to it, you’d not be a believer – so do you think such people are doomed to hell despite the fact that they’ve simply never been offered the opportunity to believe or not believe?
(A) I do not believe these people are doomed to hell. I believe that if they died before they were told about The Father, than they are exempt, similar to a child before the age of accountability. The Lord says He will return. However, He says he will not return until the entire world has heard His name. I can’t find the scripture that coincides with that right now but if you really want me to I will find it and get back with you on that. At any rate, I believe that we have missionaries for this exact reason.
Section 2
ReplyDelete(Q) What does God look like?
(A) I do not believe there is ANYBODY who knows. However, what Jesus looks like is different. I believe you are absolutely correct about His looks. Take the facts, as you have. Where is he from? That should explain it. I believe Jesus probably looks similar to how he is depicted. I just believe his image has been altered throughout the years because people don’t see things the same. Assuming we are great artists, If I see a rainbow or a cloud and then draw it and you see the same rainbow or cloud and you draw it….. Do you think our drawings would be the same? How about the colors we saw? I believe we will have similar drawings but not the same. I also believe that someone else may see those exact same things and then see our drawings and think to themselves, “What on earth were these two looking at? Their drawings look NOTHING like that.” So what does God look like to you? I hope you are there with me to find out the answer. Then we can both try to draw Him. Lol
(Q) Why do you tell your sins to a dude instead of just confessing to the man upstairs himself during your nightly prayers?
(A) This is a question to ask a Catholic. They are the ones who have confession. I agree with you. Why can’t we just talk to God ourselves? Well we can. We “confess our sins” to our family and friends all the time. We just don’t call it that. We say “I was telling my cousin Sally about last weekend and …..” you get the picture. My pastor says “you don’t have to confess to me. I am not the judge. You don’t have to tell me a thing. I will not tell you what you did or said was wrong. God tells you that. God is The Judge. He will convict you.” Believe me, that is enough. When God convicts you, you know. If you have ever disappointed anybody, specifically someone you cared a great deal for i.e. a parent, close friend, etc. and they did not yell at you or reprimand you in any way other than saying “you really disappointed me. You have truly let me down.” than you know that feeling. That is what being convicted by God feels like. It is not guilt, it is sorrow.
(Q) Finally, how do Christians, Muslims, Jews, you name it excuse the misogyny that seems ever present in their religious texts? Do you believe that your God actually felt women, a . . . um, species, he created was inferior and deserved to be treated as such?
(A) First I must say I was not sure what misogyny was so I had to look it up and this is what I found: mi•sog•y•ny –noun hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women. Now that I am aware of the meaning I can truly say misogyny is UNEXCUSABLE! However, with that being said, I have NEVER found scripture where there is ANY evidence of this. I can only speak of Christian and Jewish people. I have not read anything on Muslims so I cannot comment on that religion. God loved everyone, men and women. He praised many of them in the Bible. One of my favorite women He looked very highly upon was Phoebe. She was a very wise and wealthy woman. She was a business woman that God trusted very much. In fact she delivered a VERY important message for Him. Mary, the mother of Jesus, God looked upon with great favor. She was VERY special to Him. The woman is just as important. He created man in His likeness (which means he created man to look like Him) and then created a companion for him, a companion. Ask yourself this question. Do you honestly believe that God would create a being less important or “below” man? Do you think that He would create a being that was not looked upon with great value, which was less than great for “his man”? This is my opinion, but I do not believe He would create someone who was not “good enough” or valued any less than his first creation. There were many women in the Bible who were praised. There were many men in the Bible who were treated awfully. If we only looked at women we might think they were treated wrong, but we must open our minds a bit, there were men there too and they were treated just as badly.
Section 3
ReplyDeleteYou asked for religion to be explained to you as if you were a small child. This is something that would take time and it is an intimate conversation, intimate meaning having a close relationship not what most of us thinks of when we hear intimate. This topic should be very delicately explained, one on one and face to face. Are you willing to give this kind of time and open yourself to the possibilities? If you are, then ask a Christian to help you and ask them face to face for explanations. Read a children’s Bible. I was an adult when I started learning about God. I heard people reference certain stories that seemed to be “common knowledge”. I had no idea what they were talking about. So, I started reading a children’s Bible. It was great, easy reading + pictures. Lol
Ame - this isn't what I believe, but how I came back. (My beliefs are very close to Shauna's.)
ReplyDeleteI was also raised Catholic and had issues with organized religion. At the age of confirmation, I got into an argument with the priest and left the church over it. I still believed in God, but was very angry and lost all faith in organized religion. (Coincidentally, that priest eventually lost his orders.) The only time I thought about God was when someone was seriously injured or died. At these times, I would talk (or yell) / pray to God.
It was 10+ years before I even considered going back to church. As silly as this sounds, I saw "The Passion" with a friend and had this urge (the Holy Spirit) to go to church. I started exploring different churches and denominations. Nothing really felt at home, but I started going to church occasionally.
About 2-4 years later, I met a seminary student (Derrick) and we had many many discussions on religion. I wanted to know what he believed, why it was so important to him and what made him want to become a pastor, etc. We had a lot in common and discovered that we have the same beliefs once we got through all the red tape. I can't say all those conversations were fun or easy. It took some soul searching. In order to move on, I had to let go of my past (and I was ready to let go). God works in mysterious ways and uses all evil for good.
The Holy Spirit is what changed me, allowed me to open my heart again and stop being angry. I left the Catholics long ago and recently joined the Lutherans. Similar, yet very different. Derrick and I were married 3 years ago. This spring, the journey continues as he receives his first call. I'm very excited to find out what God has in mind for us.
Did something happen to cause you to lose faith in God? What made you decide to become an atheist?